I've been in touch with Terry in Australia his wife Patsy's grandfather was Edward John O'Keefe. Patsy has just done a DNA test and should get her results in a few weeks.
Terry says: "Edward came to Australia from Ireland in the early 1900's and enlisted in the Australian army. Just before that he married and on his marriage certificate he said he was born in The Faythe in Wexford. I found an O'Keefe family living at The Faythe but unfortunately I can't find any reference to an Edward O'Keefe."
I have found his military records (Australia WW1) which confirms he was from Wexford. I can currently only find one possible family for him in Wexford, very near Faythe. "Will post update when I know more.
Synott, Sinnot family - there is a a book about them and apparently they appear in Burke's Irish families. They have Alice May [not Mary] Synott / Sinnott in their tree marrying Richard OK and they have a sister for Richard called Teresa Judith who marries the wealthy Edmund Barry of Dublin, where they then live. Teresa gives her birthplace as Westmeath (1901 census Dublin, where she dies 1909), and of course we don't know where Richard and his siblings were born. However, I'm not quite sure this is the same family, some of whom end up at Rathmoylen. This is not helped by the fact there is a baptism for an Alice Maria Synott the same year of birth 1827 with different parents!
The baptism I prefer is Alicia Sinnott, Baptism Age 0 Baptised 15 Nov 1827 at Wexford, Wexford, Ireland, Diocese Ferns, Father James Sinnott, Mother Bess Neil. preferred becasue some of this family end up in Faythe, Wexford.
The Edmund Barry family have no baptism for Alice May Synott, just a date of birth - 3 sep 1827 d. 23 July 1885 dau of Piere Sinnot = Ellen browne. This is according to the sinnott genealogy site, and their info sourced from Burke's Irish Family Records (1976), pages 1092-1096 (Synnott).
So maybe there are 2 Alices. Confusion reigns!
Wednesday, 22 January 2020
Sunday, 19 January 2020
Autosomal DNA matches to our O'Keefes
Nothing positive to date. However, the name callahan / Callaghan does crop up quite a bit.
I discounted John bap. 1828 Cork, son of Richard O'keefe and Ellen Callaghan, as our ancestor because he turns up in the army, consistently givng date and place of birth as St Finbarre's, Cork (see below). However, the family names and places would fit our family. So thought I'd post info here. No descendats found or wherabouts of the family after the last baptism.
Children of Richard Keefe & Ellen nee Callaghan, all bap St Finbarre's (South) Cork
Richard O'Keefe 1818 sponsors: Mary Callaghan (no image seen)
Mary O'keefe 1820 sponsors: John Murphy and Mary Keefe
Ellen Keeffe 1823 Apr 14, sponsors: James & Mary Lane, William Samuels? & Ellen Keefe [wrongly trascribed as dau of Michael on Ancestry]
James O' keefe 1825 sponsors Daniel Barrett and Mary Bourke
[Bap same day as James:
Mary dau of Dan Keefe & Mary ...? (short surname) Sponsors: Michael Keefe and Anastsia WIlliams
John 1828 Apr 1, sponsors Daniel Allen, Ellen Donague, William Samuel, John Keeffe
Mary O' Keefe 1831 - image on ancestry unreadable for sponsors - might be better at irish archives
Military Information which fits John b. 1828:
1851 census Preston, sussex, UK - Relationship: Private age 22, b. St fennebars, Cork.
I discounted John bap. 1828 Cork, son of Richard O'keefe and Ellen Callaghan, as our ancestor because he turns up in the army, consistently givng date and place of birth as St Finbarre's, Cork (see below). However, the family names and places would fit our family. So thought I'd post info here. No descendats found or wherabouts of the family after the last baptism.
Children of Richard Keefe & Ellen nee Callaghan, all bap St Finbarre's (South) Cork
Richard O'Keefe 1818 sponsors: Mary Callaghan (no image seen)
Mary O'keefe 1820 sponsors: John Murphy and Mary Keefe
Ellen Keeffe 1823 Apr 14, sponsors: James & Mary Lane, William Samuels? & Ellen Keefe [wrongly trascribed as dau of Michael on Ancestry]
James O' keefe 1825 sponsors Daniel Barrett and Mary Bourke
[Bap same day as James:
Mary dau of Dan Keefe & Mary ...? (short surname) Sponsors: Michael Keefe and Anastsia WIlliams
John 1828 Apr 1, sponsors Daniel Allen, Ellen Donague, William Samuel, John Keeffe
Mary O' Keefe 1831 - image on ancestry unreadable for sponsors - might be better at irish archives
Military Information which fits John b. 1828:
1851 census Preston, sussex, UK - Relationship: Private age 22, b. St fennebars, Cork.
UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925: John M?? O'Keefe, Pension Examination Age: 42, (so b. abt 1829) St. Finnbar, Cork. Shoe maker. Reg: 8th Fencibles Irish. Rank: Private, Reg No: 1036. Total Service 23 yrs 2 in Turkey & Crimea, 6 in India. So joined abt 1849.
Non-Matches to Our O'Keefe / Keefe YDNA
Peter O'Keefe's YDNA has no matches, other than ancient ones. This means the O'Keefe's he does not match in the O'Keefe DNA Project on family Tree DNA, should in theory not be related to us.
So this is a list for elimination purposes.
Update - I have now got the names of the grandparents of the Wexford YDNA tester below, but haven;t been able to identify or connect him to the Wexford families we know of.
So this is a list for elimination purposes.
Update - I have now got the names of the grandparents of the Wexford YDNA tester below, but haven;t been able to identify or connect him to the Wexford families we know of.
| all born ireland unless otherwise stated | |
| John O'Keeffe, Glenlara, Newmarket, Co Cork | |
| Denis Keeffe b1815, Anglesboro, Limerick, Ireland | |
| Thomas O'Keefe b.1822 Doneraile, Co Cork, IRE | |
| Michael Keith ((John)1766-1823 | Mass, USA |
| William McCarty, b about 1750 | scotland |
| John O'Keeffe b1801 Fethard, Co Tipperary | |
| John O'Keeffe b.1801 Cahir, Co Tipp, IRE | |
| Arthur O'Keefe | |
| Patrick O'Keeffe b 1920-1987, Rathcormack, Co Cork | |
| Timothy O'Keefe, Buttevant, Co Cork | |
| Patrick O’Keefe b. c1825 Co Cork | |
| Michael O'Keefe, Indiana, U.S. | |
| John O'Keeffe 1830 Castletownroche, Ireland | u/k |
| John Keeffe c.1840, Fermoy, Co Cork | |
| Denis O Keeffe b1845 Cloyne, Co Cork | |
| Patrick O'Keeffe | |
| Cornelius O'Keeffe, b. 1801 and d. 1871 | |
| James O'Keeffe b.1780 IRL | |
| Dennis' O'Keeffe (1806-1880), Steuben Co., NY | |
| John Keefe, b. abt. 1800, d. ? | |
| Donald Harold Keefe, b 1891 MA, d 1964 CO. | u/k |
| Daniel O'Keeffe b. 1816 Co Cork IRE d. 1889 UK | |
| James Patrick O'Keefe b. 1830 Ireland d. Wisconsin | |
| Jonathan Keef b. 1824 | u/k |
| Elijah Keef, b. 1890 and d. 1919 | u/k |
| Thomas Keef Sr., b. 1770 and d. 1835 | u/k |
| Keefe 1802 Cahill 1800 | |
| John Keeffe, Lmerick, about 1840 | |
| O'Keeffe, Co Wexford | |
| Michael O'Keefe, b.1841 d. 1929 | |
| William O'Keeffe b1833 Glanmire | |
| William O'Keeffe b1833, Glanmire, Cork, Ireland | |
| William O'Keeffe, b. 1803, Cloyne, Co Cork | |
| John O'Kieffe, b. c1831 | |
| Daniel O'Keeffe b.c. 1788 | |
| Patrick O'Keefe b. 1824 Co Cork, Ireland, d. NY | |
| JAMES ARMSTRONG? | usa |
| Daniel G O'Keeffe, b @1800 Cork, d 1886 Forks, PA | |
| John J. O'Keeffe, b.1880 BallinvuskigEast,Cork | |
| Daniel Keefe, b. 1829 | u/k |
| Morris O'Keefe 1831-1876, Mitchelstown, Co Cork | |
| Eliud Keith b 1784 d 1845 | scotland |
| Cornelius Keith, b. 1690 | uk |
| Patrick Keefe, b. 1834 and d. 1916 | |
| Richard Creed 1730 - 1788 | uk |
| Thomas Parkinson 1780 - 1840 | uk |
| Joseph Alexander Buote, b. 1921 and d. 1978 | canada |
| Michael O'Keefe b. 1838 and d. 1903 | |
| William Keefe | uk |
| James Michael Keefe b.1857, Canada d. Iowa, US | |
| John Keeffe, c.1800-c.1860 | |
| William T. Keefe | |
| Richard O'Keefe, b: 1786, d: 1875, USA |
Thursday, 16 January 2020
Adoptions [Karen's contributions in blue]
Well I have decided to adopt the Iffernock Keefe family, in County Meath. For the time being anyway.
County Meath has the most Richard Keeffe millers. So that gets my vote. What is apparent trying to piece together the various families, is that there are missing records everywhere. It has been hard to pad out the families.
The Iffernock Keefe's are gradually building into a clearer picture.
There was a patriarch name of John who seems to have been born around about 1781..
Yes, 1780 ish d. 1843 age 64 buried Rathmolyen, wife Mary b. c. 1781 bur 1837 Age 56 Rathmoylen.
Their children - Richard 1810-1872, Judith 1811 -1825, Michael Thomas 1825-1850, Richard 1826-1878.
they very likely connected to to Patrick b. 1837 Trim, bur 1916 Rome (where he was visiting for Xmas) according to info about him - Rev Dean O'Keefe - on Internet as priest at Yass Australia, who erects memorial in Rathmoylen churchyard, same headstone ref no as John, Mary and their children, but born too late to be son of Mary. He returns to home in Ireland 1906 & never returns. Is this him in corbalis townland, Rathmoylen 1901 - Patrick Keeffe age 74 , farmer living with 2 servants.
I doubt it. He was a Franciscan priest and would have maybe been in a Abbey of some sort. As a Catholic Priest there is not retirement, no truce - that he was in Rome when he died indicates he was still faithfull. I am not sure of his full name. Patrick but maybe John Patrick or something like that. He had the name John Corbalis when he first became a Franciscan. He was a senior Franciscan it says in the article. Richard 1826 to 1872 was one that married Alicia Synott. He must have been the grandson of John and Mary I think?
There are references to John Keefe of Knock Mills in trade directories - oats and meal I think it says. And then to a Richard Keefe and these records are from around 1843 and are in the newspapers of the time. But death records don't seem to match up with this date. However, we have a marriage. To Alicia Maria Synnott of Wexford in 1846. Alicia died in Summerhill in Wexford in 1885 according to an announcement in the newspapers, widow of the late Richard Keefe etc.
Have found the 1846 marriage in Rathmines, though Alice is "of Wexford". Oddly there is a baptism of John Keeffe 31 May 1844 in Trim Son of Richard and Alice nee Synott, wit John Flood and Mary Allen. Yes I saw that too. Also a son of Richard by not Alice in 1870 who seems to have died soon afterwards. There were two Richards at that time in Trim one was a miller and one was a tailor.
Then some children. One was John Patrick Keefe who has put a memorial in the Rathmolyon churchyard to his parents and siblings. He was the Very Reverend Dean Patrick Keefe O.S. F. Coulburn Australia. I'm not so sure now that this character is part of the immediate family but is certainly some relation.
There was also a William Joseph. He married Mathilda Fogarty and they lived in Wexford at a place called Faythe. He is described as a Maltster of a Merchant. He lost his son William Henry in the First World War and a stained glass window to William Henry's memory was installed in a church in Bride's Street. Another Joseph might have been in Trim where Iffernock Mill was situated and he might be referenced as a Water Bailiff in the Court Records for 1880. Another courts records is for a Joseph who was pinching fish from the river. Then there was Peter Joseph. Joseph seems to be the best name for everybody. But I can't get a handle on him at all. There were two daughters. Catherine born in 1865 I cannot trace but Mary Ellen might present at the Sisters of Mercy Convent in 1911 Census for Dublin and she was a teacher.
Yes, a possible son Richard b.c. 1850 in Wexford married to Maria Sinnott (poss cousin?) with children living in Wexford 1901 & 1911.
Then a Thomas J (poss Joseph) O'Keefe b.c. 1854 who dies 1893 Wexford, son of the late Richard O'Keefe of Rock Mills Trim.
Then Mary Ellen Teresa, b.c. 1855 Meath, married 1883 Trim to John Crean (day of the late Richrad no'Keefe Esq of Nock Mills), and living in Wexford 1901 (Townparks) & 1911 (Summerhill) with family.
Then William Joseph b.c. 1858 married matilda Fogarty lives Faythe Wexford 1901 & 1911, leaves will d. 1924 (descendant has tree on Ancestry).
And Catherine who married Joseph Delaney in 1891 Trim "youngest dau of the late Richard of Nock Mills, Trim".
Yes I found them last night. Thomas Joseph marriage Nannie Cullen dr of the late Garret Cullen of Tara Hall County Meath esquire in 1882. and niece of the late Cardinal Cullen. Annoyingly this Nannie Cullen O'Keeffe disappears. There are various mentions of Garrett Cullen and his family on the internet - some suggestion that Nannie was his grand daughter not his daughter which is backed by the newspaper announcement of her marriage where she is described as the niece of Cardinal Cullen. These internet references suggests Thomas J. and Nannie has two sons and a daughter, Catherine who died in Kildare but I cannot find any trace of them, not births, deaths etc.
Another son of John of 1780 ish was Michael Keefe Nursery and Seedsman. He had a market garden in Dublin - perhaps it was Swift's Vinery? Who knows. It was on Long Lane. He won prizes for his flowers. He did not marry. His brother I think was Christopher who was a florist but inherited the nursery and lived eventually at Rock Lodge which was the home of the Disney family but I don't think he lived there long or may be he just lived in the gatehouse or on the estate.
Another child of John Keefe was Teresa Keefe who married in 1849 to Sir John Edmond Barry - a corn merchant of Waterford. She was born about 1830 and they lived in Dublin.
So there you are. A wealthy family. Lots of names that resonate, teachers, education, links to the Catholic Church, joining religious orders etc. and mission work. Corn mills in Meath, and in Wexford and links to Waterford. No good systematic births, death and marriages. It's a bit piece meal with general Google searches throwing up the odd link to check up. They even do a bit of salmon poaching, I mean fishing, just like the Barkers. It's a patchwork. But if John was born in about 1836/7 he might have been the nephew of Richard Keefe of Knock Mill. He is not his son. Nor probably is he the son of John of 1780 and his wife Mary. Some other relative perhaps. But perhaps there was a Richard Keefe brother of John Keefe of 1780ish.
So if our John (O') Keefe/Keeffe was connected to this family then he would have some status. The birth date given in the 1861 Census is the least likely to be accurate. So he was about 24 years old, a young teacher and on sort of Mission. Nice Catholic teacher with good credentials. And perhaps he also had some kind of private income. He would not have been well paid at the Catholic School in Egton Bridge. And he was "out of employ" in 1871. Certainly if his father was a miller he would know about trade and commerce, book keeping and trading. That sort of thing.
I was pleased to just find that in Wexford Mssrs. O'Keefe Bros were donating to the Church of the Assumption October Collection. William Joseph O'Keeffe was part of this company. Their offices were in Faythe down by the harbour. In their offices too, a collection was made - Captain Green of the "Excellent" donated 2/6d and his crew gave 5 s. Captain Storey of "Spray" gave 5 s. and his crew gave 2/6d. So we have shipping in our family too. That's useful for family legends.
Rathmolyon Graveyard
Well I have decided to adopt the Iffernock Keefe family, in County Meath. For the time being anyway.
County Meath has the most Richard Keeffe millers. So that gets my vote. What is apparent trying to piece together the various families, is that there are missing records everywhere. It has been hard to pad out the families.
The Iffernock Keefe's are gradually building into a clearer picture.
There was a patriarch name of John who seems to have been born around about 1781..
Yes, 1780 ish d. 1843 age 64 buried Rathmolyen, wife Mary b. c. 1781 bur 1837 Age 56 Rathmoylen.
Their children - Richard 1810-1872, Judith 1811 -1825, Michael Thomas 1825-1850, Richard 1826-1878.
they very likely connected to to Patrick b. 1837 Trim, bur 1916 Rome (where he was visiting for Xmas) according to info about him - Rev Dean O'Keefe - on Internet as priest at Yass Australia, who erects memorial in Rathmoylen churchyard, same headstone ref no as John, Mary and their children, but born too late to be son of Mary. He returns to home in Ireland 1906 & never returns. Is this him in corbalis townland, Rathmoylen 1901 - Patrick Keeffe age 74 , farmer living with 2 servants.
I doubt it. He was a Franciscan priest and would have maybe been in a Abbey of some sort. As a Catholic Priest there is not retirement, no truce - that he was in Rome when he died indicates he was still faithfull. I am not sure of his full name. Patrick but maybe John Patrick or something like that. He had the name John Corbalis when he first became a Franciscan. He was a senior Franciscan it says in the article. Richard 1826 to 1872 was one that married Alicia Synott. He must have been the grandson of John and Mary I think?
There are references to John Keefe of Knock Mills in trade directories - oats and meal I think it says. And then to a Richard Keefe and these records are from around 1843 and are in the newspapers of the time. But death records don't seem to match up with this date. However, we have a marriage. To Alicia Maria Synnott of Wexford in 1846. Alicia died in Summerhill in Wexford in 1885 according to an announcement in the newspapers, widow of the late Richard Keefe etc.
Have found the 1846 marriage in Rathmines, though Alice is "of Wexford". Oddly there is a baptism of John Keeffe 31 May 1844 in Trim Son of Richard and Alice nee Synott, wit John Flood and Mary Allen. Yes I saw that too. Also a son of Richard by not Alice in 1870 who seems to have died soon afterwards. There were two Richards at that time in Trim one was a miller and one was a tailor.
Then some children. One was John Patrick Keefe who has put a memorial in the Rathmolyon churchyard to his parents and siblings. He was the Very Reverend Dean Patrick Keefe O.S. F. Coulburn Australia. I'm not so sure now that this character is part of the immediate family but is certainly some relation.
There was also a William Joseph. He married Mathilda Fogarty and they lived in Wexford at a place called Faythe. He is described as a Maltster of a Merchant. He lost his son William Henry in the First World War and a stained glass window to William Henry's memory was installed in a church in Bride's Street. Another Joseph might have been in Trim where Iffernock Mill was situated and he might be referenced as a Water Bailiff in the Court Records for 1880. Another courts records is for a Joseph who was pinching fish from the river. Then there was Peter Joseph. Joseph seems to be the best name for everybody. But I can't get a handle on him at all. There were two daughters. Catherine born in 1865 I cannot trace but Mary Ellen might present at the Sisters of Mercy Convent in 1911 Census for Dublin and she was a teacher.
Yes, a possible son Richard b.c. 1850 in Wexford married to Maria Sinnott (poss cousin?) with children living in Wexford 1901 & 1911.
Then a Thomas J (poss Joseph) O'Keefe b.c. 1854 who dies 1893 Wexford, son of the late Richard O'Keefe of Rock Mills Trim.
Then Mary Ellen Teresa, b.c. 1855 Meath, married 1883 Trim to John Crean (day of the late Richrad no'Keefe Esq of Nock Mills), and living in Wexford 1901 (Townparks) & 1911 (Summerhill) with family.
Then William Joseph b.c. 1858 married matilda Fogarty lives Faythe Wexford 1901 & 1911, leaves will d. 1924 (descendant has tree on Ancestry).
And Catherine who married Joseph Delaney in 1891 Trim "youngest dau of the late Richard of Nock Mills, Trim".
Yes I found them last night. Thomas Joseph marriage Nannie Cullen dr of the late Garret Cullen of Tara Hall County Meath esquire in 1882. and niece of the late Cardinal Cullen. Annoyingly this Nannie Cullen O'Keeffe disappears. There are various mentions of Garrett Cullen and his family on the internet - some suggestion that Nannie was his grand daughter not his daughter which is backed by the newspaper announcement of her marriage where she is described as the niece of Cardinal Cullen. These internet references suggests Thomas J. and Nannie has two sons and a daughter, Catherine who died in Kildare but I cannot find any trace of them, not births, deaths etc.
Another son of John of 1780 ish was Michael Keefe Nursery and Seedsman. He had a market garden in Dublin - perhaps it was Swift's Vinery? Who knows. It was on Long Lane. He won prizes for his flowers. He did not marry. His brother I think was Christopher who was a florist but inherited the nursery and lived eventually at Rock Lodge which was the home of the Disney family but I don't think he lived there long or may be he just lived in the gatehouse or on the estate.
Another child of John Keefe was Teresa Keefe who married in 1849 to Sir John Edmond Barry - a corn merchant of Waterford. She was born about 1830 and they lived in Dublin.
So there you are. A wealthy family. Lots of names that resonate, teachers, education, links to the Catholic Church, joining religious orders etc. and mission work. Corn mills in Meath, and in Wexford and links to Waterford. No good systematic births, death and marriages. It's a bit piece meal with general Google searches throwing up the odd link to check up. They even do a bit of salmon poaching, I mean fishing, just like the Barkers. It's a patchwork. But if John was born in about 1836/7 he might have been the nephew of Richard Keefe of Knock Mill. He is not his son. Nor probably is he the son of John of 1780 and his wife Mary. Some other relative perhaps. But perhaps there was a Richard Keefe brother of John Keefe of 1780ish.
So if our John (O') Keefe/Keeffe was connected to this family then he would have some status. The birth date given in the 1861 Census is the least likely to be accurate. So he was about 24 years old, a young teacher and on sort of Mission. Nice Catholic teacher with good credentials. And perhaps he also had some kind of private income. He would not have been well paid at the Catholic School in Egton Bridge. And he was "out of employ" in 1871. Certainly if his father was a miller he would know about trade and commerce, book keeping and trading. That sort of thing.
I was pleased to just find that in Wexford Mssrs. O'Keefe Bros were donating to the Church of the Assumption October Collection. William Joseph O'Keeffe was part of this company. Their offices were in Faythe down by the harbour. In their offices too, a collection was made - Captain Green of the "Excellent" donated 2/6d and his crew gave 5 s. Captain Storey of "Spray" gave 5 s. and his crew gave 2/6d. So we have shipping in our family too. That's useful for family legends.
Rathmolyon Graveyard
Erected by Richard Keefe
of Knock Mills in memory of
his mother Mary Keefe who dept
this life 20th August 1837 aged 56 years
of his father John Keefe who dept this
life 8th May 1843 aged 64 years
and of his sister Judith Keefe who dept.
this life in 1825 Mi Thomas Keefe who
departed this life 23rd of January 1850
aged 35 years
requiescat in pace
As a tribute of sincere devotion to his parents brothers and sisters whose relics sleep here This monumnet is erected by the Very Rev Dean O'Keefe O. S. F. Coulburn Australia 1885http://staug-yass.org.au/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Memories-of-Yass-Mission-New.pdf
Tuesday, 14 January 2020
Circumstantial evidence.
Knock Mills.
There are some mills associated with O'Keefe.
Rathronan - here a Richard Keeffe died about 1850. I believe his wife was called Ellen although I don't remember why. This family is connected to the Yelverton mob and were having a bit of a do over this Will. I kind of discount this mill now.
Rathangan Kildare - this was pre 1800 and the family were petitioning the Duke of Wellington after soldiers stationed at the mill took all the stock or something. But I can't find any descendants although there are Keefe's around. Daniel I think.
Barllyartella. This was a Patrick I think - around about 1850 he was having an angry match with someone in the press, then immigrated. I think he was in debt. Etc. Loss of wife and children in a shipwreck on the way to Australia.
Ballyquane - Sherlock and Helen Keeffe marriage. I have googled around it. It ends up in the Landed Estate Courts. It does not seem to get anywhere.
St Dominic's Mill in Cork City. A distillery . It is Keeffe O'Keeffe and John O'Keeffe and I think it ends badly.
Also another down in the south somewhere I forget the details.
Oh and David Keeffe in Youghal making earthenware and dealing in coal and ships.
Rathmolyon Richard Keefe
Kill Mill somewhere like that. This and the above are in Meath.
Knock Mills Iffernock Clearly connected with Richard Keeffes. I have been researching this family. I want to know all about them. Particularly because Nock Mills or whatever it is called, is in Trim. Also Trim (and Dublin) we have Michael and Christopher O'Keeffe with their plant nursery in Trim. And I've mislaid all the notes I made.
Recently I took a look at Matthias O'Keeffe. He's interesting. See below. But I digress. We should adopt Matthias though. If we could choose then that it what we should do.
So was Richard Keeffe miller baptised at St Finbarr's ? We hope so. I want this one Richard Keeffe 1804 parents John Keeffe and Ansty Barry/Berry. John and Anstace live near and around Gill Abbey Street which is near the river in Cork. They had a few other children too. Mainly Mary, Daniel and Johanna. Jolly good. I want the Richard Keeffe of about that birth date to get married at St. Finbarr's. I am choosing this one. Richard Keeffe and Honora Buckley of St Brongs. I am choosing this marriage for a reason. I want the random birth of a John O'Keeffe around about 1834 ish in Cork to a father Richard - and I like this one best. John Keeffe 1838 to Richard and Norry Keeffe Ballymacoda and Ladysbridge. Just cos. Because Buckley is the kind of name you get with Milling families. That and Sherlock (posh) Sullivan, Barry and so on.
So back to facts. Now I need a Honoria Keeffe death. Sadly. So I looked at Wills first. There are not many in Cork so I widened it. I found one in Trim. A Will. Death of Richard Keeffe. That might be one of the three Richard Keeffe's that are connected with various Meath mills but it is a bit of a co incidence.
The Nock Mills ROK has a good background for me. He is politically active around 1840s with Irish rights problems. Gives money to this and that cause. We can have him.
Of course it does not work quite right. This is because of funeral monuments in Trim that give more detail about a Richard Keeffe who indeed had a father John but his mother was called Mary. Anyway. I still want to adopt them. I like too the next generation where a Richard Keeffe married Alicia Maria Synnott in Dublin. She died in 1885 in Summerhill Wexford. Ferns. And also there are a little nest of O'Keeffe's back in Waterford, O'Keeffe and Co. William Joseph who is the son of Richard Keeffe of Nock Mills. So a big connection with this family to Wexford and William Joseph thinks he was born there and not in Meath.
So is there an Ansty Keeffe death in Waterford or Wexford? Astace Barry was born in 1777 - there is a maybe death in Dungarvan in 1872. Hmm.
What there is from all this is a picture of mobility and connection between the O'Keeffe's of Trim and Wexford maybe also Waterford. It would be nice if our ancestors in Cork had had some land and not been millers. Farmers are so much easier to find. I am sticking for the moment to this Honoria O'Keeffe. She'll do for now.
Engineer and architect, of Cork and London. Mathias O'Keeffe, who was born in Cork circa 1830,(1) was articled in 1850 to PETER JOSEPH KLASEN , a district engineer in the Board of Works. He then worked on various engineering projects in England, Ireland and Scotland, before settling in Cork in about 1859.(2) He remained in Cork until at least 1880, when he held the position of city engineer and surveyor,(3) but by 1887 had moved to Brixton in London.(4) The English census of 1891 shows him as a sixty-one year old civil engineer and architect living at 13 Villa Road, Brixton, with his thirty-three year old Cork-born wife, Margaret, and two-year-old daughter, Mary.
A survey drawing by O'Keeffe, signed, addressed and dated 23 November 1876, showing the plan and section of the route for a proposed viaduct from Cobh cathedral over Middleton Street and West Street to the Crescent is among the Ashlin and Coleman drawings in the Irish Architectural Archive.(5)
What is interesting too is that his only child Mary O'Keeffe seems to have joined the Notre Dame order in Wandsworth and is a teacher there.
Knock Mills.
There are some mills associated with O'Keefe.
Rathronan - here a Richard Keeffe died about 1850. I believe his wife was called Ellen although I don't remember why. This family is connected to the Yelverton mob and were having a bit of a do over this Will. I kind of discount this mill now.
Rathangan Kildare - this was pre 1800 and the family were petitioning the Duke of Wellington after soldiers stationed at the mill took all the stock or something. But I can't find any descendants although there are Keefe's around. Daniel I think.
Barllyartella. This was a Patrick I think - around about 1850 he was having an angry match with someone in the press, then immigrated. I think he was in debt. Etc. Loss of wife and children in a shipwreck on the way to Australia.
Ballyquane - Sherlock and Helen Keeffe marriage. I have googled around it. It ends up in the Landed Estate Courts. It does not seem to get anywhere.
St Dominic's Mill in Cork City. A distillery . It is Keeffe O'Keeffe and John O'Keeffe and I think it ends badly.
Also another down in the south somewhere I forget the details.
Oh and David Keeffe in Youghal making earthenware and dealing in coal and ships.
Rathmolyon Richard Keefe
Kill Mill somewhere like that. This and the above are in Meath.
Knock Mills Iffernock Clearly connected with Richard Keeffes. I have been researching this family. I want to know all about them. Particularly because Nock Mills or whatever it is called, is in Trim. Also Trim (and Dublin) we have Michael and Christopher O'Keeffe with their plant nursery in Trim. And I've mislaid all the notes I made.
Recently I took a look at Matthias O'Keeffe. He's interesting. See below. But I digress. We should adopt Matthias though. If we could choose then that it what we should do.
So was Richard Keeffe miller baptised at St Finbarr's ? We hope so. I want this one Richard Keeffe 1804 parents John Keeffe and Ansty Barry/Berry. John and Anstace live near and around Gill Abbey Street which is near the river in Cork. They had a few other children too. Mainly Mary, Daniel and Johanna. Jolly good. I want the Richard Keeffe of about that birth date to get married at St. Finbarr's. I am choosing this one. Richard Keeffe and Honora Buckley of St Brongs. I am choosing this marriage for a reason. I want the random birth of a John O'Keeffe around about 1834 ish in Cork to a father Richard - and I like this one best. John Keeffe 1838 to Richard and Norry Keeffe Ballymacoda and Ladysbridge. Just cos. Because Buckley is the kind of name you get with Milling families. That and Sherlock (posh) Sullivan, Barry and so on.
So back to facts. Now I need a Honoria Keeffe death. Sadly. So I looked at Wills first. There are not many in Cork so I widened it. I found one in Trim. A Will. Death of Richard Keeffe. That might be one of the three Richard Keeffe's that are connected with various Meath mills but it is a bit of a co incidence.
The Nock Mills ROK has a good background for me. He is politically active around 1840s with Irish rights problems. Gives money to this and that cause. We can have him.
Of course it does not work quite right. This is because of funeral monuments in Trim that give more detail about a Richard Keeffe who indeed had a father John but his mother was called Mary. Anyway. I still want to adopt them. I like too the next generation where a Richard Keeffe married Alicia Maria Synnott in Dublin. She died in 1885 in Summerhill Wexford. Ferns. And also there are a little nest of O'Keeffe's back in Waterford, O'Keeffe and Co. William Joseph who is the son of Richard Keeffe of Nock Mills. So a big connection with this family to Wexford and William Joseph thinks he was born there and not in Meath.
So is there an Ansty Keeffe death in Waterford or Wexford? Astace Barry was born in 1777 - there is a maybe death in Dungarvan in 1872. Hmm.
What there is from all this is a picture of mobility and connection between the O'Keeffe's of Trim and Wexford maybe also Waterford. It would be nice if our ancestors in Cork had had some land and not been millers. Farmers are so much easier to find. I am sticking for the moment to this Honoria O'Keeffe. She'll do for now.
Engineer and architect, of Cork and London. Mathias O'Keeffe, who was born in Cork circa 1830,(1) was articled in 1850 to PETER JOSEPH KLASEN , a district engineer in the Board of Works. He then worked on various engineering projects in England, Ireland and Scotland, before settling in Cork in about 1859.(2) He remained in Cork until at least 1880, when he held the position of city engineer and surveyor,(3) but by 1887 had moved to Brixton in London.(4) The English census of 1891 shows him as a sixty-one year old civil engineer and architect living at 13 Villa Road, Brixton, with his thirty-three year old Cork-born wife, Margaret, and two-year-old daughter, Mary.
A survey drawing by O'Keeffe, signed, addressed and dated 23 November 1876, showing the plan and section of the route for a proposed viaduct from Cobh cathedral over Middleton Street and West Street to the Crescent is among the Ashlin and Coleman drawings in the Irish Architectural Archive.(5)
What is interesting too is that his only child Mary O'Keeffe seems to have joined the Notre Dame order in Wandsworth and is a teacher there.
Friday, 10 January 2020
Well I am vexed. I have just endeavored to re do old research to try to find our Richard Keeffe.
Something somewhere has to be wrong.
Irish records are not that bad. Especially for Cork City.
I have looked at all Richard Keeffe marriages at St Finbarrs. All children born to Richard Keeffes.
At all John Keeffe's births.
Somewhere somehow there has to be connection.
I traced Matthew/Matthias Keeffe of Cork. There were two. One was a doctor and one was a noted Engineer, who apparently travelled in the UK and then settled back in Cork. He was also a teacher.
The engineer came to England and is the Census for 1891 I think. He came and he was married then to a much younger woman. They had one child born in Lambeth and this child went to be a nun of Notre Dame.
Hmm.
But I cannot find his birth etc.
I have contacted Irish groups for the parish of Ballymacoda and Ladybridge where there was a John Keeffe born to a Richard and Norry Keeffe in 1838. There was a corn mill in Ballymacoda. A marriage for a Richard Keeffe and Honora Buckley in Cork City in 1821. But the researcher there suggested John Keeffe born in Cork City in 1822. That seems too early for our ancestor.
Anyway. Vexed here.
One record for a Richard Keeffe, marriage or parent must be our ancestor. But which?
Hi Clare, yes it is most frustrating. I have collected lots of info on Richard O'keefe's (& variant surnames), built trees on Ancestry for various O'keefe families, had our O'Keefe YDNA tested, searched for autosomal DNA links in ireland, but still nothing that we can say is our Richard or John in Ireland. As you know I thought the Richard O'keefe and Mary Callaghan couple having children in Cork was them, though their John was baptised 1828, but found that the 1828 John was recorded in other records. These are the families I have explored via creating trees:
Something somewhere has to be wrong.
Irish records are not that bad. Especially for Cork City.
I have looked at all Richard Keeffe marriages at St Finbarrs. All children born to Richard Keeffes.
At all John Keeffe's births.
Somewhere somehow there has to be connection.
I traced Matthew/Matthias Keeffe of Cork. There were two. One was a doctor and one was a noted Engineer, who apparently travelled in the UK and then settled back in Cork. He was also a teacher.
The engineer came to England and is the Census for 1891 I think. He came and he was married then to a much younger woman. They had one child born in Lambeth and this child went to be a nun of Notre Dame.
Hmm.
But I cannot find his birth etc.
I have contacted Irish groups for the parish of Ballymacoda and Ladybridge where there was a John Keeffe born to a Richard and Norry Keeffe in 1838. There was a corn mill in Ballymacoda. A marriage for a Richard Keeffe and Honora Buckley in Cork City in 1821. But the researcher there suggested John Keeffe born in Cork City in 1822. That seems too early for our ancestor.
Anyway. Vexed here.
One record for a Richard Keeffe, marriage or parent must be our ancestor. But which?
Hi Clare, yes it is most frustrating. I have collected lots of info on Richard O'keefe's (& variant surnames), built trees on Ancestry for various O'keefe families, had our O'Keefe YDNA tested, searched for autosomal DNA links in ireland, but still nothing that we can say is our Richard or John in Ireland. As you know I thought the Richard O'keefe and Mary Callaghan couple having children in Cork was them, though their John was baptised 1828, but found that the 1828 John was recorded in other records. These are the families I have explored via creating trees:
O'keefe Rathmines Family Tree
I have just created a tree to put on all the found Johns and Richards of about the right age who aren't in one of the other trees. This can gradually be built up and maybe used to eliminate various John's born in Ireland about the right time. Hardly anyone on this tree yet - but did find a John Keefe, shipwright born Cork on the vessel Encounter in Japan in 1861.
Just seen this - I have been so busy tonight with the Nurserymen of Dublin/Meath Michae
l and Christopher. Christopher is resident of Rathfarnham. And in Rathfarnham we find a Richard Keefe. Thinking on it. A shipwright is good. But our John was in Egton in 1861.
Just seen this - I have been so busy tonight with the Nurserymen of Dublin/Meath Michae
l and Christopher. Christopher is resident of Rathfarnham. And in Rathfarnham we find a Richard Keefe. Thinking on it. A shipwright is good. But our John was in Egton in 1861.
Thursday, 2 January 2020
Peter O'Keefe - Engine Fitter Waterford/Wexford
Karen has just raised this because of the search for the Peter O'Keefe who made the news in 1873 along with John Monaghan in Egton area of Yorkshire.
[KH info - One other event which may be of importance is the warrant for the arrest of Peter Keefe reported in the newspapers 1873 - "Assault at Glaisdale". —John Monaghan and Peter Keefe had been summoned for assaulting Charles Framley, at Glaisdale, on the Ist inst. Defendants did not appear, and warrants were issued for their apprehension." 12 April 1873 - Whitby Gazette. Who is Peter Keefe? Was he a relative visiting John? A P Keefe is also mentioned again in 1885 "As usual on St Stephen's day the Catholic colony at this village had their popular concert in the evening......by the choir of the church and songs by Miss...Barker .... and Messrs ... P. Keefe, R Barker ... J Keefe... vocal duet by Miss Clark & Miss Barker" Again a record which might be a clue to relative of \John's. There is a Peter Keefe born Waterford who lived in Staffordshire from 1849 - in 1851 he is "millwright", in 1861 Engline Fitter, becomes bankrupt 1868, millwright in 1871, railway Engine Fitter 1881, dies 1887. All his sons are potters at some time growing up. His grandson becomes an RC Priest at Stoke on trent and then at Cannock. ]
This Peter O'Keefe that Karen has been researching hails from Staffordshire via Waterford. So I have been padding him out a bit.
In 1851 Peter Keafe can be found in the High Street of Stoke Upon Trent and is an engine fitter (Millwright fitter). He has wife Bridget (Sullivan) with him and five children all born in Ireland. Youngest son Joseph was born in Fenton, Staffordshire. I'm not sure if this High Street is in Stoke or Fenton?
So I have traced the births of the children. They were born in Dublin Arran Quay or Haddington Road and baptized there. Another child Edward appears on the next census in 1861, born in 1855. Son Peter died in 1867 and this sad fact appeared in the newspaper.
Son William born around 1836 was first recorded as a potter, then by 1861, he was married to Hannah Rowley. He is probably the son of Peter as he consistently gives his birth place as Dublin. He can be found in the 1871 Census and now he is an Auctioneer and Valuer. His father Peter O'Keefe having been bankrupted as an Engine Fitter in 1868.
In 1861, William Junior, is described as a general engine fitter and his sister Bridge is living with him in Harding Street, Stoke. She gives her employment as dress maker.
He and Hannah have one son William Rowley O'Keefe. This son became a Catholic Priest and was Canon Rowley O'Keefe at his death. Parish priest in Stourbridge for 17 years. Etc.
Confusingly there is a Bridget O'Keefe and two sons William and Thomas in London in 1871 - all from Waterford which confused things for a while. Ah take that back, I have now found Peter and Bridget living in Stoke with sons Joseph and Edward.
A William O'Keefe married a Hannah Rowley in 1857 in Hanley Staffs. She died before 1891 I think. She was some ten years older than William. A sister in law, Martha Rowley was living with William and Hannah in 1881.
William went on to be a successful auctioneer and by the 1891 Census was living off his own means.
So back to Peter born around 1811. Of course I cannot find anyone to fit this birth date. There is just one lively suspect on FMP and it might need a search on the Eire paying site to check things out. I did find a Peter son of a Richard in Wexford, Ferns in 1817. The family that match up to this comprises just one son and several daughters. It's a bit annoying. I have not found the rest of this Peter O'Keefe's children and traced their lives yet. They have vanished.
I have now found that Joseph O'Keeffe (1851) married an Elizabeth and worked as a potter. In 1881 he was living in Milner Street, Stoke. In 1900, he and Elizabeth are in New Jersey. Trenton, Mercer. He is still working in the pottery trade. The Census has a column for their parents' origin, and Joseph's parents are listed as being from Ireland, while Joseph was born in England.
This is all something and nothing. Two similarities with the O'Keefe family in Egton Bridge. The connection to Mills and Milling being one and the interest in pottery. John O'Keefe (1832/6) was an agent for Eartheware products when he lived in Glaisdale. We wondered if this was a link to a Milling family in Waterford. But possibly it could be a link to this family in Stoke. There is also the same lack of consistency with the spelling of the family name and a deep commitment to Catholicism.
This Peter O'Keefe that Karen has been researching hails from Staffordshire via Waterford. So I have been padding him out a bit.
In 1851 Peter Keafe can be found in the High Street of Stoke Upon Trent and is an engine fitter (Millwright fitter). He has wife Bridget (Sullivan) with him and five children all born in Ireland. Youngest son Joseph was born in Fenton, Staffordshire. I'm not sure if this High Street is in Stoke or Fenton?
So I have traced the births of the children. They were born in Dublin Arran Quay or Haddington Road and baptized there. Another child Edward appears on the next census in 1861, born in 1855. Son Peter died in 1867 and this sad fact appeared in the newspaper.
Son William born around 1836 was first recorded as a potter, then by 1861, he was married to Hannah Rowley. He is probably the son of Peter as he consistently gives his birth place as Dublin. He can be found in the 1871 Census and now he is an Auctioneer and Valuer. His father Peter O'Keefe having been bankrupted as an Engine Fitter in 1868.
In 1861, William Junior, is described as a general engine fitter and his sister Bridge is living with him in Harding Street, Stoke. She gives her employment as dress maker.
He and Hannah have one son William Rowley O'Keefe. This son became a Catholic Priest and was Canon Rowley O'Keefe at his death. Parish priest in Stourbridge for 17 years. Etc.
Confusingly there is a Bridget O'Keefe and two sons William and Thomas in London in 1871 - all from Waterford which confused things for a while. Ah take that back, I have now found Peter and Bridget living in Stoke with sons Joseph and Edward.
A William O'Keefe married a Hannah Rowley in 1857 in Hanley Staffs. She died before 1891 I think. She was some ten years older than William. A sister in law, Martha Rowley was living with William and Hannah in 1881.
William went on to be a successful auctioneer and by the 1891 Census was living off his own means.
So back to Peter born around 1811. Of course I cannot find anyone to fit this birth date. There is just one lively suspect on FMP and it might need a search on the Eire paying site to check things out. I did find a Peter son of a Richard in Wexford, Ferns in 1817. The family that match up to this comprises just one son and several daughters. It's a bit annoying. I have not found the rest of this Peter O'Keefe's children and traced their lives yet. They have vanished.
I have now found that Joseph O'Keeffe (1851) married an Elizabeth and worked as a potter. In 1881 he was living in Milner Street, Stoke. In 1900, he and Elizabeth are in New Jersey. Trenton, Mercer. He is still working in the pottery trade. The Census has a column for their parents' origin, and Joseph's parents are listed as being from Ireland, while Joseph was born in England.
This is all something and nothing. Two similarities with the O'Keefe family in Egton Bridge. The connection to Mills and Milling being one and the interest in pottery. John O'Keefe (1832/6) was an agent for Eartheware products when he lived in Glaisdale. We wondered if this was a link to a Milling family in Waterford. But possibly it could be a link to this family in Stoke. There is also the same lack of consistency with the spelling of the family name and a deep commitment to Catholicism.
Wednesday, 1 January 2020
Revisiting [Karen's contributions in blue] All ideas welcome, good to question things.
John O'Keeffe (I think this is the spelling in the 1861 census - there is for sure, an O' ,and I think the lower parts of two ffs ) was apparently born in 1833 but was not quite sure of it! This would make him 13 years older than wife Elizabeth, if it was true. We know he is a school master, and numerate, and trustworthy. So why does his age than wander to a birth date of 1836? [presumably to bring thier ages closer together - a very common thing people did when their ages were quite different was to bring them closer together]. He seems to be O'Keefe at his wedding and then he is known as Keefe. Is this the outcome of others filling out his census returns etc?[he is named as Mr J keefe in 1858 when attending the opening of the catholic Church in Scarborough] Or did he choose to lose the O'? Karen thinks he would be avoiding prejudice against the Irish but I do not agree with this. [This is what people in the family told me when I began researching the family history in the 1980s - I was told that it was Mary nee Conroy who insisted they use the "O" because it was she who was especially pro-Irish] He lives in an outpost of Catholicism where he has come as part of the Mission to them as the first schoolmaster at the Catholic School. I don't think they are anti Irish in this spot. They have far too much experience of oppression to be thus biased. Where did the O' go? And the extra f.? My feeling is that is was of no importance at the time as these spellings are all uses...... his son Joseph marries as O'Keeffe. But then Joseph's son is John O'Keefe. [I suspect the use of the "O", or omission of it, in the birth registrations of the children of Joseph and Mary O'Keefe may have been dependent on who registered the birth] I think I have been denied my full quota of letters in my name!
Karen has a book with dedication very clearly to O'Keeffe. [this is a book with the date 1854 in the inscription - perhaps when he turned 21 or left ireland] It must be that we have a liking for standard spellings that was not around in earlier times. If I changed the spelling of my name it would lock me out of various internet accounts. Things are different now.
Also, he must have had an Irish accent. So avoiding Irish prejudice would have been a bit difficult.
So here we have the first teacher at the new Catholic School. (1858)
He resigns this post around the time of his marriage for a clerical post at the Ironstone works. Which closes, and by 1871 he is " out of employ" which is bad luck for a man with two children and a rent to pay. [he is a "booking clerk out of employ" - I was never sure if this was for the railway or for the ironworks. However, the Glaisdale ironworks opened in 1866 and closed in 1876. maybe this is why John and Elizabeth went to live in Glaisdale if this is whre he worked for a while. (He is known to have collected money towards the building of the church from workers at the iron works - this reported to me by the archivist at Middlesborough many years ago). The Grosmont ironworks was 1862-1892] We don't know the date that he finished at the school and began at the Ironstone works. We must presume that there was better pay as a clerk, because the status as schoolmaster was something to be prized. Maybe. [I am pretty sure he left the school master job in order to earn more working, he was school master when he married.]
It was not a well paid job. The school could not have been very large. At the time, the school must have been attached to the church somehow ... the modern day school is housed in the pre 1867 church building which also included the Presbytery for the priest.
I don't know if there was also another school in Egton Bridge or Egton maybe for non Catholic children. We must assume yes.
Just having read a history of Teachers and Education in Ireland I wonder that John Keefe was given the post. There is a record of John Keeffe graduating from Queen's College in Cork around 1856 ish - as usual I cannot find the record when I need it - in Arts. But according to the information I just read through, it was not really the done thing for a Catholic to attend this college because of disapproval by the bishops of Ireland. Also, very few Catholics were admitted because generally speaking, they were not well educated ,to access further education.
It is all very enigmatic.
What are the chances that " the Captain" ( first mate maybe) of a ship should land up in Egton Bridge and be appointed the first school master in a remote Catholic community? I could understand the situation if John had been educated in England, say Ampleforth or Stoneyhurst or even Ushaw. Maybe if he had been in England before 1858. But to think that he came over from Cork? What is this about? It does suggest that the post was given him while he was resident in Cork and that he filled in his time after his education with learning to be a mariner. Cork was a good place for sailors but this is all very odd. [I agree it seems likely the school master job was arranged while he was in Ireland, and he came over to take up the post. Egton Bridge is mentioned in Irish newspapers as donating money to Irish causes. It is possible the O'keefe's knew Andrew McCarthy who was priest at Egton around the time John went there. As for the ship connection - there is no reliable evidence for this at all, though it is quite possible John arrived in Whitcby by ship, unless he came to Liverpool and made his wasy across country. The Catholic archives found nothing in the EB school or other records, about his origins or how he came to be there. Also, there is no trace of a baptism for him in Cork - could the story have been that it was his father who was baptised or married in Cork, rather than him? We actually have no idea where he lived, all we have is that in the 1911 census "unknown" for place of birth is crossed through - was this written by Elizabeth? - and Cork written in it's place - strongly suggesting he was born in Cork. But so convincing baptism found to date.]
It would seem that he and his wife Elizabeth moved to Glaisdale after their marriage. [possibly for the ironworks job as mentioned earlier]
Before this John is involved with the Egton Bridge Horticultural Society and Show on St Thomas' Island (He lodges with a family in 1861) - which island is just before the mill in Egton Bridge. This Society and Show was begun in 1859 and did not go well the first year. After that things improved. John never enters anything that he has grown - he is the Secretary dealing with the paperwork. He is not a grower. He is a Classer at another Show some years later though. [He is a classer in 1866 - the year before he married - he must have known something to be given a judging job?] However his FIL George Barker is a keen exhibitor and wins many prizes - as are many other familiar names. Joseph Lawson, Richard Barker etc. George grows winning gooseberries and these are exhibited in the Gooseberry Show, another organisation - apparently around since 1800. George has been a winning shower for a long time before the Horticultural Society was founded! A George is mentioned in the 1820's but this was probably an earlier George Barker.
In 1867 after his marriage John is involved with Penny Readings in Glaisdale. Press references to these span only two years. Penny Readings are a fashion in Whitby before this time.
After this he is the Secretary for the Egton and Glaisdale Ploughing Society.... for around 8 years by Press release info. This is the competition for ploughing and hedge cutting. The committee have meetings at local hostelries ie The Tunnel Inn in Grosmont and other venues. The competition takes place in the winter.
This indicates that John was not very interested in growing things or that he did not have any time, or garden land. It also suggest that John was keen to get busy in Glaisdale until the children began to arrive and then his outlet was the Ploughing Society. John keeps to this for a good time and I hope he enjoyed the planning meetings and events. We don't know if the Press references and times they represent are determined by fashions for activities or by the proficiency of the organisers in getting press releases. It would suggest that John was a man who understood the ploughing of land though: that he cared about it. Or was he just being amenable? His obituary emphazises his kindness and goodwill.
Other social activities for him would include membership of the Guild of st Hedda and St Joseph in Egton Bridge. [John was not a member of the Guild of St Hedda's - I have been through all the Guild books, including the membership lists, at the RC Archives at Middlesborough and John never subscribes as a member of the Guild, or pays in to the funeral funds etc. I suspect John was more interested in education and entertainment and would have found the Guild rather too restrictive and narrow, which was maybe why he never joined.] Activities included walking round the area preceded by the Egton Bridge Brass Band and then a meeting - food - lectures by the priest. One source cites this guild as being more influential than the parish priest " due to the strict rules for behaviour that were devised"( Margaret H Turniman.)
We see John more clearly in his musical activities. He played the violin and family legend has it, that he gave lessons in violin. He played at some time in a quadrille Band for balls and so on and he was given to singing at the Catholic Concerts in Egton Bridge. (Not Irish songs maybe, although some reports include others singing Irish ballads, but not John). In one report he sings about Hot Codlings, a rather suggestive song about alcohol... he also sings in Glees. (part singing usually of a classical nature at this time) He is clearly a very musical man. He and his wife are believed to have sung in the church choir before their marriage. I hope they sung afterwards as well.
Employment.
Looking at the census returns gives us a skewed picture. He is out of employ then a signal man, shopkeeper -then a signal man and so on. [The census returns give him as a booking clerk in 1871 (presumably at the railway/), a railway signalman and gocer in 1881, a block signalman i n 1891, a railway signalman in 1901, and a pensioned retired signalman in 1911 South Eastern Railway] His Obituary declares that he was a Signal Man for 25 years and he had a pension for this. The date is given but I forget. I believe he must have been a Signal Man from around 1875 . The Press reveals that, in addition to this, the family was giving accommodation for visitors and this is documented from around 1890. I do forget. They were taking in visitors at Carr View, as were their daughters Eliza and Helen at some point. They also have paid guests when living back in Egton Bridge at St Hedda's Row.
The whole area was famous for beautiful scenery and there was much business to be gained.
His father in law and second wife, they were very much into the lodgings trade (Esk Villa) and this is where we find the daughters of the family finding economic development. (Manchester) His sister in law Hannah Mary marries the nephew of Joseph Lawson [she married Isaac lawson in 1899 - in 1891 he is railway clark in Darlington, in 1901 he is Station master at Egton Bridge] the keeper of the Station Hotel in Egton Bridge. Her husband Isaac has been working in Darlington prior to his appointment as Station Master at Egton Bridge. The prizes won by Hannah's husband Isaac as Station Master in Egton Bridge suggest she that she too is into growing stuff and good at it too. I imagine hanging baskets of flowers. The building of Esk Villa would seem to be aimed at developing the business side of Holiday Lodgings - instead of the traditional family trade of tailoring and shop keeping. [It seems highly likely that it is Frances, George Barker's 2nd wife, who runs this - it is her name in all the newspaper lists of visitors]
Looking at the connections and family and social grouping for John, gives an interesting picture.
His sisters in law, Hannah and Esther were talented musicians, both capable pianists and organists. Hannah was also a teacher and Principal of her own school. [Hannah is an assistant teacher or teacher in 1881 and 1891. In 1901 Hannah Mary Lawson is living at 1 Broomfield terrace, Ruswarp, and is the first listed in the household of 2, but is given as "partner" to the head of household (who is presumably not present that night) and her occupations as "Principle Private School" working from home on her own account, with a servant Annie SDoyle age 18 born in Anglesy, living in with her. Assistant ] He married into a very musical family. A family that educated their girls. I wonder why his wife Elizabeth was not so gifted? Or was she? [I seem to remember newspaper reports show she was involved in the helping with entertainment events]
He mixed with the whole community and I would guess this was important to him.
Looking at the work and opportunities for progression on the railways - John did not do so well? He is a signal man which is labour rather than managerial. [but you did have to be literate to do asignalman's job - communications and train movements had to be logged in a record book, and it does seem to have been a pensionable job]]
Isaac Lawson, his brother in law, is a station master.
John and his wife took in some orphans from Bradford. The Glenn family were adopted by them and appear either in John's home or in the home of his grown up daughters. When one of the Glenn family dies from injuries sustained in action in the second world war there is quite a thing about it in the Press. Father in law George also seems to have an orphan from Bradford living with him and second wife Frances, in the 1891 Census. Anne Starr born in Bradford. Is she a servant or a foster child?
I boggle at the accommodation needs of so many children, foster children, and summer visitors!
Lastly John is listed in a Trade Directory as a dealer in Earthenware when in Glaisdale ie 1890. That is a bit of an anomaly.He was a signal man at that time. Perhaps he also had a shop (he is down as a shopkeeper either 1881 or 1891 I forget.) How would there be enough room for a shop?
Joseph Lawson - the keeper of the Station Hotel in Egton, he is a sportsman and was into hunting in his younger years.
John however, has no references to this kind of activity. In the old photos which we think were taken around 1867 ie the time of his marriage - he has a bowler hat. These details are significant of social class at the time. What does this signify? [In 1858 at the opening of the RC church in Scarborough (or Whitby), he is described in newspapers as a "noteable" person. In 1901 he is reported in the newspapers "At the Arncliffe Hotel: Mr J O'Keefe presents a silver albert and silver matchbox on Mr pearson leaving the district to join the Outh African Constabulary", and his obituary in the newspapers in 1915 make it clear he was a respected person. Anuty kath thought of him as a "gentleman" and said his accent was more Dublin than Cork - but who knows! I just wish someone had asked him about his Irish family.]
Elizabeth wears a blouse and skirt: she has a pretty hat and a cloak. Remember that her father is a tailor by trade and a daughter at one point is a dressmaker.
If John's father was called Richard , why no Richard son? We understand that brother in law, Richard Barker was "the Black Sheep" of the family -but Richard is present at many local gatherings and has office of some sort, he also had the tenancy of an Inn in the village of Egton [he is joiner's app 1871, grocer in 1881, joiner in 1891, at the Wheatsheaf Inn as innkeeper and farmer in 1901 [Etgon for all these), then in 1911 he is living at Old Boulby, Easington and is a mechanic at the Ironstone mines.
Why no references to Ireland handed down by family? [Was Elizabeth the dominant one? from what aunty kath said she was quite a feisty character, so maybe his origins were not talked about?]
If John's father was a miller in any meaningful way, why cannot we find reference to this? It should leave an echo. Was he exaggerating somehow, about the miller bit? Was his father a farmer? With a bit of an interest in corn milling? Not a man notable as a miller.
Is the marriage record wrong as to name? [I have often wondered if the name is wrong!]
[One other event which may be of importance is the warrant for the arrest of Peter Keefe reported in the newspapers 1873 - "Assault at Glaisdale". —John Monaghan and Peter Keefe had been summoned for assaulting Charles Framley, at Glaisdale, on the Ist inst. Defendants did not appear, and warrants were issued for their apprehension." 12 April 1873 - Whitby Gazette. Who is Peter Keefe? Was he a relative visiting John? A P Keefe is also mentioned again in 1885 "As usual on St Stephen's day the Catholic colony at this village had their popular concert in the evening......by the choir of the church and songs by Miss...Barker .... and Messrs ... P. Keefe, R Barker ... J Keefe... vocal duet by Miss Clark & Miss Barker" Again a tantalising record which might be a clue to relative of \John's. There is a Peter Keefe born Waterford who lived in Staffordshire from 1849 - in 1851 he is "millwright", in 1861 Engline Fitter, becomes bankrupt 1868, millwright in 1871, railway Engine Fitter 1881, dies 1887. All his sons are potters at some time growing up. His grandson becomes an RC Priest at Stoke on trent and then at cannock. ]
John O'Keeffe (I think this is the spelling in the 1861 census - there is for sure, an O' ,and I think the lower parts of two ffs ) was apparently born in 1833 but was not quite sure of it! This would make him 13 years older than wife Elizabeth, if it was true. We know he is a school master, and numerate, and trustworthy. So why does his age than wander to a birth date of 1836? [presumably to bring thier ages closer together - a very common thing people did when their ages were quite different was to bring them closer together]. He seems to be O'Keefe at his wedding and then he is known as Keefe. Is this the outcome of others filling out his census returns etc?[he is named as Mr J keefe in 1858 when attending the opening of the catholic Church in Scarborough] Or did he choose to lose the O'? Karen thinks he would be avoiding prejudice against the Irish but I do not agree with this. [This is what people in the family told me when I began researching the family history in the 1980s - I was told that it was Mary nee Conroy who insisted they use the "O" because it was she who was especially pro-Irish] He lives in an outpost of Catholicism where he has come as part of the Mission to them as the first schoolmaster at the Catholic School. I don't think they are anti Irish in this spot. They have far too much experience of oppression to be thus biased. Where did the O' go? And the extra f.? My feeling is that is was of no importance at the time as these spellings are all uses...... his son Joseph marries as O'Keeffe. But then Joseph's son is John O'Keefe. [I suspect the use of the "O", or omission of it, in the birth registrations of the children of Joseph and Mary O'Keefe may have been dependent on who registered the birth] I think I have been denied my full quota of letters in my name!
Karen has a book with dedication very clearly to O'Keeffe. [this is a book with the date 1854 in the inscription - perhaps when he turned 21 or left ireland] It must be that we have a liking for standard spellings that was not around in earlier times. If I changed the spelling of my name it would lock me out of various internet accounts. Things are different now.
Also, he must have had an Irish accent. So avoiding Irish prejudice would have been a bit difficult.
So here we have the first teacher at the new Catholic School. (1858)
He resigns this post around the time of his marriage for a clerical post at the Ironstone works. Which closes, and by 1871 he is " out of employ" which is bad luck for a man with two children and a rent to pay. [he is a "booking clerk out of employ" - I was never sure if this was for the railway or for the ironworks. However, the Glaisdale ironworks opened in 1866 and closed in 1876. maybe this is why John and Elizabeth went to live in Glaisdale if this is whre he worked for a while. (He is known to have collected money towards the building of the church from workers at the iron works - this reported to me by the archivist at Middlesborough many years ago). The Grosmont ironworks was 1862-1892] We don't know the date that he finished at the school and began at the Ironstone works. We must presume that there was better pay as a clerk, because the status as schoolmaster was something to be prized. Maybe. [I am pretty sure he left the school master job in order to earn more working, he was school master when he married.]
It was not a well paid job. The school could not have been very large. At the time, the school must have been attached to the church somehow ... the modern day school is housed in the pre 1867 church building which also included the Presbytery for the priest.
I don't know if there was also another school in Egton Bridge or Egton maybe for non Catholic children. We must assume yes.
Just having read a history of Teachers and Education in Ireland I wonder that John Keefe was given the post. There is a record of John Keeffe graduating from Queen's College in Cork around 1856 ish - as usual I cannot find the record when I need it - in Arts. But according to the information I just read through, it was not really the done thing for a Catholic to attend this college because of disapproval by the bishops of Ireland. Also, very few Catholics were admitted because generally speaking, they were not well educated ,to access further education.
It is all very enigmatic.
What are the chances that " the Captain" ( first mate maybe) of a ship should land up in Egton Bridge and be appointed the first school master in a remote Catholic community? I could understand the situation if John had been educated in England, say Ampleforth or Stoneyhurst or even Ushaw. Maybe if he had been in England before 1858. But to think that he came over from Cork? What is this about? It does suggest that the post was given him while he was resident in Cork and that he filled in his time after his education with learning to be a mariner. Cork was a good place for sailors but this is all very odd. [I agree it seems likely the school master job was arranged while he was in Ireland, and he came over to take up the post. Egton Bridge is mentioned in Irish newspapers as donating money to Irish causes. It is possible the O'keefe's knew Andrew McCarthy who was priest at Egton around the time John went there. As for the ship connection - there is no reliable evidence for this at all, though it is quite possible John arrived in Whitcby by ship, unless he came to Liverpool and made his wasy across country. The Catholic archives found nothing in the EB school or other records, about his origins or how he came to be there. Also, there is no trace of a baptism for him in Cork - could the story have been that it was his father who was baptised or married in Cork, rather than him? We actually have no idea where he lived, all we have is that in the 1911 census "unknown" for place of birth is crossed through - was this written by Elizabeth? - and Cork written in it's place - strongly suggesting he was born in Cork. But so convincing baptism found to date.]
It would seem that he and his wife Elizabeth moved to Glaisdale after their marriage. [possibly for the ironworks job as mentioned earlier]
Before this John is involved with the Egton Bridge Horticultural Society and Show on St Thomas' Island (He lodges with a family in 1861) - which island is just before the mill in Egton Bridge. This Society and Show was begun in 1859 and did not go well the first year. After that things improved. John never enters anything that he has grown - he is the Secretary dealing with the paperwork. He is not a grower. He is a Classer at another Show some years later though. [He is a classer in 1866 - the year before he married - he must have known something to be given a judging job?] However his FIL George Barker is a keen exhibitor and wins many prizes - as are many other familiar names. Joseph Lawson, Richard Barker etc. George grows winning gooseberries and these are exhibited in the Gooseberry Show, another organisation - apparently around since 1800. George has been a winning shower for a long time before the Horticultural Society was founded! A George is mentioned in the 1820's but this was probably an earlier George Barker.
In 1867 after his marriage John is involved with Penny Readings in Glaisdale. Press references to these span only two years. Penny Readings are a fashion in Whitby before this time.
After this he is the Secretary for the Egton and Glaisdale Ploughing Society.... for around 8 years by Press release info. This is the competition for ploughing and hedge cutting. The committee have meetings at local hostelries ie The Tunnel Inn in Grosmont and other venues. The competition takes place in the winter.
This indicates that John was not very interested in growing things or that he did not have any time, or garden land. It also suggest that John was keen to get busy in Glaisdale until the children began to arrive and then his outlet was the Ploughing Society. John keeps to this for a good time and I hope he enjoyed the planning meetings and events. We don't know if the Press references and times they represent are determined by fashions for activities or by the proficiency of the organisers in getting press releases. It would suggest that John was a man who understood the ploughing of land though: that he cared about it. Or was he just being amenable? His obituary emphazises his kindness and goodwill.
Other social activities for him would include membership of the Guild of st Hedda and St Joseph in Egton Bridge. [John was not a member of the Guild of St Hedda's - I have been through all the Guild books, including the membership lists, at the RC Archives at Middlesborough and John never subscribes as a member of the Guild, or pays in to the funeral funds etc. I suspect John was more interested in education and entertainment and would have found the Guild rather too restrictive and narrow, which was maybe why he never joined.] Activities included walking round the area preceded by the Egton Bridge Brass Band and then a meeting - food - lectures by the priest. One source cites this guild as being more influential than the parish priest " due to the strict rules for behaviour that were devised"( Margaret H Turniman.)
We see John more clearly in his musical activities. He played the violin and family legend has it, that he gave lessons in violin. He played at some time in a quadrille Band for balls and so on and he was given to singing at the Catholic Concerts in Egton Bridge. (Not Irish songs maybe, although some reports include others singing Irish ballads, but not John). In one report he sings about Hot Codlings, a rather suggestive song about alcohol... he also sings in Glees. (part singing usually of a classical nature at this time) He is clearly a very musical man. He and his wife are believed to have sung in the church choir before their marriage. I hope they sung afterwards as well.
Employment.
Looking at the census returns gives us a skewed picture. He is out of employ then a signal man, shopkeeper -then a signal man and so on. [The census returns give him as a booking clerk in 1871 (presumably at the railway/), a railway signalman and gocer in 1881, a block signalman i n 1891, a railway signalman in 1901, and a pensioned retired signalman in 1911 South Eastern Railway] His Obituary declares that he was a Signal Man for 25 years and he had a pension for this. The date is given but I forget. I believe he must have been a Signal Man from around 1875 . The Press reveals that, in addition to this, the family was giving accommodation for visitors and this is documented from around 1890. I do forget. They were taking in visitors at Carr View, as were their daughters Eliza and Helen at some point. They also have paid guests when living back in Egton Bridge at St Hedda's Row.
The whole area was famous for beautiful scenery and there was much business to be gained.
His father in law and second wife, they were very much into the lodgings trade (Esk Villa) and this is where we find the daughters of the family finding economic development. (Manchester) His sister in law Hannah Mary marries the nephew of Joseph Lawson [she married Isaac lawson in 1899 - in 1891 he is railway clark in Darlington, in 1901 he is Station master at Egton Bridge] the keeper of the Station Hotel in Egton Bridge. Her husband Isaac has been working in Darlington prior to his appointment as Station Master at Egton Bridge. The prizes won by Hannah's husband Isaac as Station Master in Egton Bridge suggest she that she too is into growing stuff and good at it too. I imagine hanging baskets of flowers. The building of Esk Villa would seem to be aimed at developing the business side of Holiday Lodgings - instead of the traditional family trade of tailoring and shop keeping. [It seems highly likely that it is Frances, George Barker's 2nd wife, who runs this - it is her name in all the newspaper lists of visitors]
Looking at the connections and family and social grouping for John, gives an interesting picture.
His sisters in law, Hannah and Esther were talented musicians, both capable pianists and organists. Hannah was also a teacher and Principal of her own school. [Hannah is an assistant teacher or teacher in 1881 and 1891. In 1901 Hannah Mary Lawson is living at 1 Broomfield terrace, Ruswarp, and is the first listed in the household of 2, but is given as "partner" to the head of household (who is presumably not present that night) and her occupations as "Principle Private School" working from home on her own account, with a servant Annie SDoyle age 18 born in Anglesy, living in with her. Assistant ] He married into a very musical family. A family that educated their girls. I wonder why his wife Elizabeth was not so gifted? Or was she? [I seem to remember newspaper reports show she was involved in the helping with entertainment events]
He mixed with the whole community and I would guess this was important to him.
Looking at the work and opportunities for progression on the railways - John did not do so well? He is a signal man which is labour rather than managerial. [but you did have to be literate to do asignalman's job - communications and train movements had to be logged in a record book, and it does seem to have been a pensionable job]]
Isaac Lawson, his brother in law, is a station master.
John and his wife took in some orphans from Bradford. The Glenn family were adopted by them and appear either in John's home or in the home of his grown up daughters. When one of the Glenn family dies from injuries sustained in action in the second world war there is quite a thing about it in the Press. Father in law George also seems to have an orphan from Bradford living with him and second wife Frances, in the 1891 Census. Anne Starr born in Bradford. Is she a servant or a foster child?
I boggle at the accommodation needs of so many children, foster children, and summer visitors!
Lastly John is listed in a Trade Directory as a dealer in Earthenware when in Glaisdale ie 1890. That is a bit of an anomaly.He was a signal man at that time. Perhaps he also had a shop (he is down as a shopkeeper either 1881 or 1891 I forget.) How would there be enough room for a shop?
Joseph Lawson - the keeper of the Station Hotel in Egton, he is a sportsman and was into hunting in his younger years.
John however, has no references to this kind of activity. In the old photos which we think were taken around 1867 ie the time of his marriage - he has a bowler hat. These details are significant of social class at the time. What does this signify? [In 1858 at the opening of the RC church in Scarborough (or Whitby), he is described in newspapers as a "noteable" person. In 1901 he is reported in the newspapers "At the Arncliffe Hotel: Mr J O'Keefe presents a silver albert and silver matchbox on Mr pearson leaving the district to join the Outh African Constabulary", and his obituary in the newspapers in 1915 make it clear he was a respected person. Anuty kath thought of him as a "gentleman" and said his accent was more Dublin than Cork - but who knows! I just wish someone had asked him about his Irish family.]
Elizabeth wears a blouse and skirt: she has a pretty hat and a cloak. Remember that her father is a tailor by trade and a daughter at one point is a dressmaker.
If John's father was called Richard , why no Richard son? We understand that brother in law, Richard Barker was "the Black Sheep" of the family -but Richard is present at many local gatherings and has office of some sort, he also had the tenancy of an Inn in the village of Egton [he is joiner's app 1871, grocer in 1881, joiner in 1891, at the Wheatsheaf Inn as innkeeper and farmer in 1901 [Etgon for all these), then in 1911 he is living at Old Boulby, Easington and is a mechanic at the Ironstone mines.
Why no references to Ireland handed down by family? [Was Elizabeth the dominant one? from what aunty kath said she was quite a feisty character, so maybe his origins were not talked about?]
If John's father was a miller in any meaningful way, why cannot we find reference to this? It should leave an echo. Was he exaggerating somehow, about the miller bit? Was his father a farmer? With a bit of an interest in corn milling? Not a man notable as a miller.
Is the marriage record wrong as to name? [I have often wondered if the name is wrong!]
[One other event which may be of importance is the warrant for the arrest of Peter Keefe reported in the newspapers 1873 - "Assault at Glaisdale". —John Monaghan and Peter Keefe had been summoned for assaulting Charles Framley, at Glaisdale, on the Ist inst. Defendants did not appear, and warrants were issued for their apprehension." 12 April 1873 - Whitby Gazette. Who is Peter Keefe? Was he a relative visiting John? A P Keefe is also mentioned again in 1885 "As usual on St Stephen's day the Catholic colony at this village had their popular concert in the evening......by the choir of the church and songs by Miss...Barker .... and Messrs ... P. Keefe, R Barker ... J Keefe... vocal duet by Miss Clark & Miss Barker" Again a tantalising record which might be a clue to relative of \John's. There is a Peter Keefe born Waterford who lived in Staffordshire from 1849 - in 1851 he is "millwright", in 1861 Engline Fitter, becomes bankrupt 1868, millwright in 1871, railway Engine Fitter 1881, dies 1887. All his sons are potters at some time growing up. His grandson becomes an RC Priest at Stoke on trent and then at cannock. ]
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